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Posted on 09-10-12, 03:16 pm
Buzzy Beetle
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Yeah, sometimes there're some very basic in the forum, since NSMBe became to a big project, and we now have more members, should we make some instruction? For example, add node is a question that is basic and common. Also the Reggie-like tile placing is convienient, but some new users may not find the way to use it.

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Posted on 09-10-12, 09:50 pm
Fuzzy
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I agree:
Posted by Piranhaplant id=15713
What we really need is documentation for all of the features in NSMBe. There are lots of random stuff that you wouldn't know unless you come here or happen to figure them out.

The thing is that nobody wants to write any documentation. This is a task that really any fairly experience member could attempt, and if somebody could at least get a rough draft or even an outline for a document that lists all the features in NSMBe, we could go from there and have others fill in the gaps or elaborate. So if anyone wants to help out the community, don't hesitate to work on this for us
Posted on 09-10-12, 10:15 pm
Super Mario
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The problem is that, even if we made a documentation/help file/whatever, people will still NOT READ IT. People will still come here asking how can they make the camera scroll up or how can they delete objects.

The right direction to go is to make the editor itself easier to use.
For example, adding a delete button in the toolbar is a super-obvious way to get anyone to be able to delete objects even if they don't get to figure out the "Del" keyboard shortcut.

So to make the editor usable we should go and remove most of these non-obvious tricky keyboard shortcuts. Control/Alt/Shift clicking needs to die too. (Now it's used only in the object editor I think).
Posted on 09-10-12, 10:35 pm
Fuzzy
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Perhaps we should add a status strip at the bottom of the main window that will briefly describe what the modifier keys/mouse buttons do. GIMP uses this and it seems to be pretty effective. The difference is that with GIMP, the use of these keys changes based on what too you're using, and in NSMBe they are always the same.

Another option would be to have Control/Shift/Alt used to make editing faster, but they are not required to do anything. Not using them at all seems kind of like a waste.
Posted on 09-10-12, 10:39 pm
Super Mario
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Yeah. Well, but seeing how editing is right now, I can't think how Control/Shift/Alt can improve edition speed (aside from control+drag to clone).

About the statusbar thing. Yeah, it's a nice idea. That, or a label somewhere so we don't waste vertical screen space (very valuable on netbooks and such). The problem is that people DONT READ. You have no idea to what extent people don't read. They don't read, NOTHING. Even if it's in front of their eyes.
Posted on 09-10-12, 11:12 pm
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Posted by Dirbaio
About the statusbar thing. Yeah, it's a nice idea. That, or a label somewhere so we don't waste vertical screen space (very valuable on netbooks and such). The problem is that people DONT READ. You have no idea to what extent people don't read. They don't read, NOTHING. Even if it's in front of their eyes.

This is so fucking true. Y'know when you add an object in Whitehole, you choose the object and then the statusbar tells you how to proceed. And despite that, someone asked me what to do.

Noobs don't fucking read, even if you make the text 100 pixels high, red, bold, blinking and whatever you want.
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Posted on 09-10-12, 11:20 pm (rev. 1 by  Dirbaio on 09-10-12, 11:23 pm)
Super Mario
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Yeah.
And people get the rules shown in their face when creating a new thread in the NSMB hacking section, and still ignore them

Anyways, back on topic.

We need to make a list of everything that's unintuitive in NSMBe, and find a way to make it more intuitive.
"Unintuitive" would be anything that is not obvious just from looking at the screen. Control/Alt/Shift clicks. Other keyboard shortcuts, idk what else.

I'll start:
- Delete objects.
Problem: Only keyboard shortcut (Del).
Solution: Add a button in the toolbar.

- Add path nodes.
Problem: Control+drag on an existing node is VERY unintuitive.
Solution: I'm not sure. Maybe right-click on a path line creates a new node in the line. But then what about paths that only have one node? Or should paths be forced to have minimum two nodes?

- Tileset object editor
Problem: Control-click deletes a tile. Control+click on a line number deletes the entire line. Shift-click toggles vertical repeating. Alt-click toggles horizontal repeating. And there's no way to set the control byte to 4 other than manually (needed for slopes).
Solution:
Turn the control byte into 3 checkboxes. X/Y repeat and Bottom part of slope.
Maybe improve the way these bits are visualized in the tiles.
Add Delete tile and Delete row buttons.

I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them right now.

EDIT:
- Camera scrolling.
Problem: Everybody has no idea on how to make the camera scroll vertically.
Solution: Change the number box in the view settings to a checkbox that reads "Allow camera to scroll vertically". I just can't see the use of the other values. Everyone uses either 0 or 255.
Posted on 09-11-12, 07:32 am


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I would keep the CTRL + Drag. It really makes edition faster.

For paths too. Keep the CTRL + Drag. A function should only be ADDED to create new nodes to a path. The CTRL+Drag thing should not be replaced.
Probably like that: While a node of a path is focused, you can right click on any place and the next node from the focused one gets created on the place of the clicking position.

Posted by Dirbaio
- Camera scrolling.
Problem: Everybody has no idea on how to make the camera scroll vertically.
Solution: Change the number box in the view settings to a checkbox that reads "Allow camera to scroll vertically". I just can't see the use of the other values. Everyone uses either 0 or 255.

Better Solution: When creating a view, the "Camera stick to bottom length" should be 15 by default. If you already know what it does, you can still edit it later.
Posted on 09-11-12, 09:41 am
Birdo


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Posted by NsmB_PrO
I would keep the CTRL + Drag. It really makes edition faster.

For paths too. Keep the CTRL + Drag. A function should only be ADDED to create new nodes to a path. The CTRL+Drag thing should not be replaced.
Probably like that: While a node of a path is focused, you can right click on any place and the next node from the focused one gets created on the place of the clicking position.

Posted by Dirbaio
- Camera scrolling.
Problem: Everybody has no idea on how to make the camera scroll vertically.
Solution: Change the number box in the view settings to a checkbox that reads "Allow camera to scroll vertically". I just can't see the use of the other values. Everyone uses either 0 or 255.

Better Solution: When creating a view, the "Camera stick to bottom length" should be 15 by default. If you already know what it does, you can still edit it later.

But then people will say: "why does the camera scroll up?".
Posted on 09-11-12, 09:48 am


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Posted by Hiccup
But then people will say: "why does the camera scroll up?".

Nope they would not. It is normally that a view should scroll up. If they don't like the view to scroll up, they can
1) Change the view settings
2) Change the view height
3) Delete anything in the 16x16 block they don't want to scroll in

Seriously, have you ever heard of someone asking, why the view does not scroll up?
Posted on 09-11-12, 03:37 pm
Fuzzy
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OK, here's my thoughts

A delete button has already been added to the toolbar, so that's not a problem anymore.
Ctrl+Drag is a huge time saver when making levels. We need to keep it, but also add another way to do it. For paths, we could add a small plus button on the corner of each node. Clicking it will create a node in the path after that node. It seems a little weird, but I don't know any other way of doing this.

I agree that "camera stick to bottom length" should default to 15, but we should also make it a checkbox. There really is no reason to use any other value, if you don't want the camera to scroll that high, make the view smaller, use camera control sprites, etc.

I agree with your tileset editor suggestions too. All of that control byte nonsense is confusing.
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